



Sec. 91.185 - IFR operations: Two-way radio communications failure.
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each pilot who has two-way radio communications failure when
operating under IFR shall comply with the rules of this section.
. . .
(3) Leave clearance limit. (i) When the clearance limit is a fix from which an approach begins, commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the expect-further-clearance time if one has been received, or if one has not been received, as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time en route.
(ii) If the clearance limit is not a fix from which an approach begins, leave the clearance limit at the expect-further-clearance time if one has been received, or if none has been received, upon arrival over the clearance limit, and proceed to a fix from which an approach begins and commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time en route
This is a question. Would you, or should you hold at the Initial Approach Fix in a legitimate lost communication situation?
If you are soldering thru the scud in your single radio FLIB and the radio does fail, what are the chances that it is portending a more serious total electrical failure. If you had a functioning navigation radio to get you to the IAF
is there a chance that the the same malaise that infected your marconi might also silence your only tool to accomplish the approach?
If you have had a more aggregious electrical failure and are improvising with a handheld, should you consider this a full emergency and accomplish the approach and land as soon as practical?
I cannot imagine that if ATC is tracking your primary only target, or has lost track of you entirely, that they won't feel oblidged to sterilize your most likely approaches up until you land safely -- regardless of how crisply you are holding an an initial approach fix. By continuing to hold all you do is; consume fuel, give the weather an opportunity to deteriorate, and suspend all the operations at the airport.
They would have no way of knowing what precise time your Big Pilot Watch was displaying, or that you might not make a dash for the ILS at any time having imagined you now smell smoke, or are seeing the ammeter twitch.
No, I would seriously consider flying the approach as soon as I reached my filed destination. Assuming I couldn't raise ATC on my hand-held backup -- I would chant 91.3 and exercise my emergency authority to get the airplane on the ground.
Sec. 91.3 - Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
Opinions?



During a recent uunet debate I asserted that an aircraft would not depart, or spin, from a coordinated turn.
It was my understanding there had to be yaw, in order to risk a spin. Note that I have demonstrated spins or received specific spin instructions in five different airplanes, on six occasions; and I am by no means an expert.
I was chided that a coordinated climbing turn could produce a dramatic wing drop (and potentially a spin) due to the different angle of attack experienced by the outside wing.
The responder offered the following references:
Full power stalls in a balanced climbing turn tend to result in the outer wing stalling first, because of the higher aoa of the outer wing, with a fairly fast wing and nose drop (particularly so if the propeller torque effect is such that it reinforces the roll away from the original direction of turn and the aircraft is a high wing configuration) and likely to result in a stall/spin situation that any pilot lacking spin recovery experience may find difficult to deal with. If the climbing turn is being made with excessive bottom rudder then the lower wing might stall first with the consequent roll into the turn flicking the aircraft over. Recovery from a stall in a climbing turn is much the same as any other stall – ease the control column forward to about the neutral position, stop any yaw, level the wings and keep the power on.
http://www.auf.asn.au/groundschool/umodule11.html#climb_turns
When the aircraft stalls in a climbing turn, the high wing is at a greater angle of attack than the low wing and therefore stalls first, which results in a rolling motion toward the high wing, creating asymmetric lift and drag. The down-going wing will stall further as a result of less lift and more drag than the up-going wing. A deeper stall, generated by aft C of G, will aggravate these asymmetries, increasing aircraft rolling and yawing moments into the down-going wing. In addition, the aft C of G reduces the distance from the C of G to the centre of pressure of the vertical fin, thus reducing directional control authority, making recovery more difficult
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/1994/a94o0316/a94o0316.asp?print_view=1
In a climbing turn, the outside or upgoing wing is meeting the relative wind at a slightly higher angle of attack than the lower wing. If we pull on the column to the stalling bite, then the upgoing wing will reach it first...The upgoing wing suddenly drops and the wing falls away from the original direction of turn.
http://www.casa.gov.au/fsa/2000/sep/FSA34-35.pdf
The Transport Canada Guidelines on Stall Training and Spin Awareness specifically requires demonstrations in coordinated climbing turns:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/general/Flttrain/TP13747/stalltrain.htm
I am not certain you could actually accomplish a spin in a certficated airplane, stalling it in this manner
from coordinated flight. My original thesis in the debate insisted that if the ball was in the center (and controls
were properly applied thru the stall) there would be no spin.
If a climbing turn on the verge of Vs risked departure would preparations for a chandelle turn carry specific
warnings? I could find none in instructional texts? Granted, at the point of minimum airspeed the bank angle is
being relaxed to zero; however the hamfisted manuevers I have demonstrated should have risked
catastrophe.
I did a cursory check of the NTSB database and could find no correlation between chandelle and spin, however,
there were incidents of loss of control following a climbing go-around. 
At this time, I do not know the answer to the question; departing from coordinated flight. However, the
discussion has challenged my thinking:
The convergence of insufficient right rudder and a slipping turn, the left turning tendencies and the
assymetrical stall could gang up on our hapless pilot resulting in a quick snap and
spin during a climbing right turn away from obstacles in the departure path.
The subject of slipping, specifically with high wing Cessna's; entertains a lot of discussion.
Many years ago a fellow named Gene Seibel rallied a T-shirt design on rec.aviation.student.
It was supposed to mirror the theme of "Runs with Scissors."
I still have the shirt in my pajama drawer. I guess it was appropriate for last years polar bear plunge,
at MapleLag, in Detroit Lakes Minnesota. A careful observer will note that I didn't plunge very deep that year.
It is a yearly tradition, but the level of committment varies. That is another story ...
The debate has always fascinated me. Perhaps becuase I have flown older taildraggers, or perhaps because
I am invariably too high and too fast. My first exposure to the "controversy" was with an FAA Safety Inspector.
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I have mild CP and walk with a limp. It affects the strength and dexterity with which I can apply my left foot.
As such I required a Statement of Demonstrated Ability in order to receive an unrestricted third class medical
and this required a flight test with the Milwaukee FSDO just prior to completing my private pilot training.
My second class waiver was awarded some years later based on operational experience alone; perhaps
I will detail the process in a later entry.
The flight test was fairly straightforward and the inspector simply asked for some of the practical test maneuvers; all the while pointing out that if I had been properly organized this could have accomplished the flight test. Perhaps the only unusual element was an "oscillatory" stall performed by pinning the control yoke full back and applying rudder corrections while the airplane stalled and recovered in succession.
As you can imagine, retiring my anxiety about the medical barrier was a large hurdle in my early training.
So when the examiner seemed satisfied, I was more than eager to point the Cessna 150 at MKE and tie it
down before some kind of fumble.
At approximately 3000ft AGL over the field, and headed the wrong direction out to sea; the tower controller volunteers runway 7 with the sporty "can you make it work?" I picked up the microphone and began to squeek "Student pilot would like a long slow series of gentle vectors around" when the nice lady from the FAA snatches the microphone, responds "yes this will work." She barks to me, "your flying is fine, and I am late for dinner." Her arrplane.
As we curve around out of the sky she sets up a full control deflection side slip and asks "has your instructor ever talked to you about slipping with flaps?" I recited the mantra and she admonished that the placard
reads "extended slips are to be _avoided_" It is not a formal limitation and they are not forbidden. She indicated that it was a valuable tool to adjust the approach angle in a power off landing (or in this case, increase descent rate to make up time when late for dinner).
I watched her honk us down out of the sky and accomplish a very nice landing. It may not have been very dramatic but I was quite early in my flying career and caught up in the event.
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The following paragraph is copied from the book "Cessna, Wings for the World" written by
William D. Thompson, an Engineering Test Pilot and later Manager of Flight Test and Aerodynamics at the Cessna Aircraft Co.
With the advent of the large slotted flaps in the C-170, C-180, and C-172 we encountered a nose down pitch in forward slips with the wing flaps deflected. In some cases it was severe enough to lift the pilot against
his seat belt if he was slow in checking the motion. For this reason a caution note was placed in most of the owner's manuals under "Landings" reading "Slips should be avoided with flap settings greater than 30° due
to a downward pitch encountered under certain combinations of airspeed, side-slip angle, and center of gravity loadings". Since wing-low drift correction in cross-wind landings is normally performed with a minimum
flap setting (for better rudder control) this limitation did not apply to that maneuver. The cause of the pitching motion is the transition of a strong wing downwash over the tail in straight flight to a lessened
downwash angle over part of the horizontal tail caused by the influence of a relative "upwash increment" from
the upturned aileron in slipping flight. Although not stated in the owner's manuals, we privately
encouraged flight instructors to explore these effects at high altitude, and to pass on the information to their students.
This phenomenon was elusive and sometimes hard to duplicate, but it was thought that a pilot should be aware of its existence and know how to counter-act it if it occurs close to the ground.
When the larger dorsal fin was adopted in the 1972 C-172L, this side-slip pitch phenomenon was eliminated, but the cautionary placard was retained. In the higher-powered C-172P and C-R172 the placard was applicable to a
mild pitch "pumping" motion resulting from flap outboard-end vortex impingement on the horizontal tail at some combinations of side-slip angle, power, and airspeed.
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The following link points to an online video from Ron Wanttaja, www.BowersFlyBaby.com. It displays the slip seen from a digital movie camera mounted to the landing strut.

Fly Baby Slip to Landing
Finally this is a video from the ground of a slip in a glider:
YouTube, slip to a landing in a glider
Notice that this Cessna 182 firewall is slightly concave near the bottom and that the top nosegear mounting is twisted slightly.
.
Here is an undamaged airframe for comparison.
Why do we have to be suspicious of buckled firewalls and nose gear damage on high wing Cessna aircraft?
Recall that the tail plane generates a down force, this is responsible for the natural pitch stability of the aircraft:
In fact, in general, the rearward Center of Gravity limit represents the aft most CG for which the tail plane is still generating a down force.
The forward Center of Gravity limit represents the point at which the tail is unlikely to reach critical angle of attack before the wing during the landing flare; at full flaps and with a range of power settings.
Let us picture this. The flaps are extended which changes the mean aerodynamic chord of the airfoil, deflecting the downwash further.
The tail is an inverted airfoil, so this downwash angle increases the angle of attack of the tail surface.
This is why you feel the need for forward trim after flap extension in most high wing aircraft.
Now lets look at a sample weight and balance problem.
Two 200lb adults and full fuel in a Cessna 182Q:
Add up the weights and moments:
And note that while we are in the Center of Gravity envelope, we are very close to the forward limit:
The common explaination for wheelbarrow landings in the Cessna 182 is poor technique and pilot induced oscillation.
Could it be that under reasonable circumstances, the airplanes are often flirting with their forward CG limits? The tailplane stalls as the pilot applies up elevator in ground effect; and the nose drops to the runway suddenly?
It is speculation but I believe you see more nosewheel damage and flexed firewalls on the high wing Cessna's than the low wing Piper Indians ...


